autochess

[Darklord42]

I didn't notice this before because I'm not as much of a avid autochess aficionado as the rest of you.

When I launch YaYp with an engine it gives me an error that I launched Winboard + Shredder11UCI (just an example) and must launch with either winboard or winboard + polyglot.

Thing is you have it so one must launch polyglot as an engine. This is overly complicated and isn't needed anymore. Now you're suppose to tell winboard where polyglot is with the /polyglotDir= in the winboard.ini and then launch a UCI engine like you would any winboard engine and tack on -fUCI or -sUCI for example

"DeepShredder11UCI.exe" /fd="Engine\DeepShredder11" -fUCI

That's all one needs. Winboard tells the ICS what engine it is using through the name it was compiled as and not what someone randomly named polyglot. I know we already discussed this, but these extra security features aren't needed. You shouldn't have to compensate for old winboard bugs. Which brings me to another thing, why did you ship the install package with the ancient 4.2.7 and Winboard_X builds? 4.4.2 (lol now 4.4.3) is much more stable and feature rich, and if someone is exploiting winboard bugs you can complain to the winboard developers.

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I remember you were curious what to do with polyglot opening books with the new system. Well you have two options

1) Open "Common Engine" dialog select the polyglot opening book to use, check use book and uncheck own book for either engines. unfortunately, with this you cant have 2 different books for 2 separate engines.

2) Open either the first or second Engine Settings dialog once that engine is launched. This dialog is generated by UCI engine and contains all the options that that engine has as well as polyglot options that you would be use too with the polyglot.ini files. Just select polyglot book and check use book.

[matematiko]

To tell you the truth, between two branches of polyglot popping up every so often, and WinBoard evolving and changing very fast, we decided to stay with what we know it works.

We still use WinBoard 4.2.7 and WinBoard_X which happen to be very stable. Most of new options of WinBoard are useless to us ( chess variants, seek graph, etc).

No doubt that perhaps there is something to gain by using the latest and greatest versions of WinBoard and Polyglot, but we as developers of YaYp faced two options:
1. Delay the development and spend countless hours trying different versions and understanding them, change YaYp's code accordingly and change the release documentation as well, or:
2. Continue as usual without the delays implicated of option 1 and make a release a soon as possible.

We opted for option 2.

Keep in mind also, that what it comes easy and natural to some, is very difficult to others: renaming files, creating batch files, modifying WinBoard and polyglot initiation files, creating shortcuts, modifying shortcuts, etc.

Now that the weight has been lifted from ours shoulders and a YaYp public version is out, we now need to concentrate in updating our now obsolete opening books. Once I feel more comfortable with our books, I am willing to listen to your suggestions, test for a newer version of a married WinBoard-Polyglot combination. We are not throwing your suggestion in a bottom less bag, actually we are very interested and perhaps, later when time allows it we can exchange some ideas and implement them in the next revision of YaYp. I will PM you my Windows messenger address if you are interested in exchanging words here and there

matematiko,

P.S. Additionally, we wanted the transition to Pogo from existing Yahoo users to be as bump less as possible.We tried newest versions of WinBoard, but it kept changing my polyglot.ini file, maybe you can share some light on this subject because Mr Muller's and Michel's technical language is way over my head.

[Darklord42]

Ok, that is reasonable. Thank-you for listening. I do know what you are saying, but trust me once you figure it out, you will start to wonder why you didn't switch sooner. But then, I also use xboard in which case the new system is a real life saver when I have to continually invoke engines by command line. The less typing the better but even in winboard it really is neater.

I'll try to answer your questions about the polyglot.ini files. In short, you don't need to edit another one or tell winboard or polyglot where they are. In fact with the default setting, it is set to not generate them with one exception later.
The setting should read in the winboard.ini as

/adapterCommand='polyglot -noini -ec "%fcp" -ed "%fd"'

So how do you edit the engine settings that would normally be in the polyglot.ini?
After starting the engine in winboard go to options/Engine #1 or #2 settings. That dialog box has all the parameters from the particular engine but also parameters from polyglot. Upon editing the polyglot settings hit save in the polyglot box and winboard will generate a polyglot.ini dedicated to that particular engine in a location of your choosing to be used whenever that engine is used. Default in the winboard installer is a folder called "_PG"

I hope that helps.

Perhaps, would you mind if I could send you my winboard folder so you can have a reference?

[matematiko]

I don't mind at all.....you know the address now

[matematiko]

Hello,

In your example, you selected polyglot(.exe)

Code: Select all

/adapterCommand='polyglot -noini -ec "%fcp" -ed "%fd'


The package contains two polyglot executables:
1.- polyglot.exe, which I suspect is one of Fonzy's version
2.- polyglot38.exe, which more than likely is 1.4w38b by Michel

Can you explain why the preference of one over the other one? Advantages, disadvantages? Will Winboard display, under engine#1 (or #2) settings the available polyglot options regardless of the polyglot version declared in /adapterCommand option?

Autochess users use several different UCI engines, on top of that some times they use it under polyglot/engine mode or polyglot/aquariumbookadapter/engine mode; and of course under any chessbase interface via winboard232d adapter. We need to be sure that if we take this new route, all of this modes will be efficient and stable hence all my questions (and more to come). Some of my questions will be answered by myself as I continue playing with this, but your help is welcome and very much appreciated.

Cheers,

[matematiko]

As expected, I am confused now. Both YaY and YaYp installers will work out of the box with the pre-installed winboard, polyglot and winboard shortcuts to use either winboard232d or polyglot pointing to the free Rybka engine.

Advanced users go beyond this and create several WinBoard shortcuts, pointing to either the same polyglot or perhaps a different polyglot version, in the shortcut is also declared the polyglot initialization file (which as you knowby default is polyglot.ini if not declared but if declared can be: polyglot2.ini, polyglot3.ini, kissmybutt.ini or whatever). Each polyglot initialization will point to the engine command, engine directory, polyglot options, engine options etc. Resuming: The user needs to create a different shortcut for every different engine (or adapter if you wish) they want to use.

They way I see it, in your suggested method, users still need to create a different winboard shortcut for every different engine (or adapter) they want to use, correct? The only difference is that by specifying
-fUCI, WinBoard knows is a UCI engine to be used via polyglot, correct? WinBoard knows (via the winboard.ini) where polyglot is, correct? And via engine settings #1 or #2, WinBoard will create an initialization file for that specific engine (Deep_Shredder_11_UCI.ini for example), correct? This initialization file will be at first loaded with polyglot and engine default options, correct? And then the user will be able to edit this file as he/she sees fit, correct?

Assuming my assumptions are correct (forgive me for the redundancy), I am a little disappointed in the sense that I was expecting to be able change engines "in the fly", but in the other hand this still a better alternative because polyglot will "probe" the engine and display the available options for that engine, in other words no need for polyglotGUI.exe any more.

If we follow this "winboard/polyglot/engine" launching method, WinBoard will send the command "set interface winboard + whateverengine" which means I have to disable the renaming polyglot/winboard232d locking trick. This is a little price to pay, and perhaps is about time we leave it to the conscience of the user that the authors of polyglot and winboard232d deserve more respect.

Now, I mentioned earlier that I didn't like this method because when browsing /playing around with engine setting #1 (or #2) my initialization file settings were changed against my will. If we go this way, we actually want to be able to edit the ini file, been this the case, does the declaration of /adapterCommand='polyglot -noini -ec "%fcp" -ed "%fd in winboard.ini is still needed?

Cheers,

[Darklord42]

Ok, now I'm confused. I only gave you one polyglot named polyglot.exe which is Michel's version 1.4.56b. Where did you find polyglot38? Or is this from the main winboard download? Honestly, as far as I can tell, they both do the same things, all the major stuff that is. There must be differences with integration with WB or perhaps some small bug fixes. HGM links to Michel's branch for some reason or another so I use that one and it meets all my needs.

He says on his winboard release thread:

These protocol extensions bring WB and UCI engines to the same level of support, provided that the UCI engines are run through a Polyglot adapter that supports the protocol extension. Michel van den Bergh's recent Polyglot versions do this.

So all in all I say use that one, I know that's not a great answer. I should look trough Michel's change-log and find out.

The -noini part of the /adapterCommand makes it so it can run without a 1st.ini right next to it. I not sure quite exactly what the rest do. I assumed that it had to do with invoking polyglot with -fUCI command. After clicking save in the Engine #1 window it creates a polyglot.ini to store your settings. All the polyglot functions such as hash should be in that window so you don't need to edit those files directly.

As for other adapters like the winboard232d adapter I guess you still have to invoke them as chess engines with the -fcp command. I don't use it because I don't have chessbase, but there are adapter's for XQ engines and that is what I have to do.

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And I don't have different shortcuts for different engines. You can if you want, there is nothing wrong with it. I just have a simple shortcut going directly to winboard and I switch engines by changing the first engine in the box before clicking on the play with ICS field. True it's not on the fly but it saves me from having to write 10 shortcuts for all my engines. (20 for both Yay and Yayp) The only other time I use shortcuts is to launch winboard with a separate .ini file and that I only do with the major variants that have separate engines and separate boards.

Your assumptions are correct, except having to edit the file, I don't think you should need to do that, (what parameters did you have in mind of changing that arent in the Engine # dialog box?) and your right it's not on the fly. HGM talked about making winboard do that in the future which will really be something, but until he solves some problems, we are stuck with having to relaunch winboard when we want to change engines. On the other hand when he does, from what I gather, you will be able to change the engine by going to a dialog box in the file menu and switching the first engine, which is essentially what I do right now only I have to relaunch winboard to do it.

In your second to last paragraph, do you want winbord to also send to the ICS what adapter it is using? I don't think that is that important. The authors intended with the writing of those programs simply to extend winboard functionality and therefor is only important to winboard users.

It is still overwriting your polyglot .ini file? The file probably wasn't intended to be edited directly so it will keep overwriting with what is checked in the dialog box. Again what settings are in that file that aren't in the engine settings dialog? Maybe you can ask HGM to include it.

[EDIT] realized there was some misinformation with the -noini command. I simply forgot what it actually did

[matematiko]

Until today, I have not tried the new version. My previous post or two were bases in mere speculation. Today I tried this way:
-Created a new folder called Engines, inside WinBoard folder.
-Created a new folder called Rybka3, inside Engines folder
-Copy to Rybka3 folder the engine called Rybka3.exe
-Created a WinBoard shortcut with the next target:

Code: Select all

C:\WinBoard-4.4.3\WinBoard\winboard.exe /zp /ics /icshost 127.0.0.1 /icsport 6000 "Rybka3.exe" /fd="Engines\Ribka3" -fUCI

-Launched YaYp and waited for the message "Waiting for WinBoard connection on port 6000
-Double clicked on my new WinBoard shortcut.
-Error pops up: Failed to start first chess program polyglot C:\WinBoard-4.4.3\WinBoard\polyglot_1st.ini on local host: pipex_open(): cannot change directory: No such file or directory
-I remember your post and added the next line to the winboar.ini file:

Code: Select all

/adapterCommand='polyglot -noini -ec "%fcp" -ed "%fd'

-Now I get error: unrecognized argument: /adapterCommand

Edit: I renamed winboard.exe shipped with the installation package to something else, and copied and pasted the winboard.exe that came in the folder you sent me. I did not get the unrecognized argument error mentioned above anymore. I am still getting other error that need to figure out. My point is: The capabilities of the winboard.exe 4.4.3 are not the same as the experimental version that (more than likely) you are using.

F.Y.I. The new error is: Failed to start first chess........blah blah blah...."polyglot.ini": No such file or directory

[Darklord42]

I'll play with the 4.4.3 version see if I can replicate what you're getting. Thanks for the detailed description. Having polyglot used in this way has been used since 4.3 and in some ways started in Winboard_X.

[matematiko]

After trying more than 200 different things, I was finally able to make 4.4.3 work. Silly me. I should have known better. I installed the package in the default directory C:\WinBoard-4.4.3\

After renaming it to just C:\WinBoard\ it worked fine. The problem with version 4.4.3 is that is working thru polyglot_1st.ini, which is something I do not want for obvious reasons, and as I mention earlier, 4.4.3 does not recognizes the argument /adapterCommand.

Next thing I did, I copied and pasted again the winboard.exe and winboard.ini you sent me, but still have an error popping complaining of directory or polyglot.ini not found.

I found an error in your Apr/06 post:

Code: Select all

/adapterCommand='polyglot -noini -ec "%fcp" -ed "%fd'


I will leave unedit so you can see it and edit it yourself.

See how %fcp is wrapped by double quotes but %fd is missing one double quote on the right hand side?

Anyway, why this version is complaining of not finding polyglot.ini when the adapter command is telling it not to use it.

I ran out of time and have to go to work....I will keep trying this evening.

Cheers,

[XsupremeX]

When I change my winboard.exe and my winboard.ini to these new ones 4.4.3. I receive this:

fics% You must be using WinBoard or WinBoard + Polyglot or WinBoard + Chessbase; not "WinBoard + Rybka 3 32 bit"
fics% Correct the problem and try again, exiting....

Same to YaY and same to YaYp. I didnt make any changes or edition. Only substituted the .exe and the .ini for the newest ones.

[Darklord42]

@XSupremeX
Yah that's because HGM fixed a bug in 4.4.3 and now Winboard tells the ICS what the engine is no matter how you invoke polyglot, (Which is good right?) but it malfunctions with the YaY(p) setup because now the engine isn't being reported as "polyglot"

@Matematiko
I'll try it myself when I find the time. College work is getting the best of me right now.

[XsupremeX]

Thx for explanation.

[matematiko]

I found part of the problem: The polyglot.exe bundled with the package is version 38, I replaced it with version 56 and now it launches just fine. I just now need to figure out how this ini files thingy works. Once satisfied I will make changes to YaYp and remove the lock.

Regards,

[matematiko]

Lock removed, but the exe is not available yet.

For details, see http://www.autochess.com/forum/post8577.html#p8577

Cheers,